Morality vs. Right vs. Wrong vs. What???????

          I’d like to further examine this debate between fiction and lying because I also think it’s a morality debate. Is the Pardoner such a bad guy that we shouldn’t listen to his story? So what if he’s lying just to further advance his monetary gain? One of the most frustrating things I’ve found so far about The Canterbury Tales is the fact that everything is so open to interpretation. Being an English major, I’m used to not having answers and not having things set in stone.  Usually I’m able to form my own opinions and convictions.  However, I think this is the first thing I’ve come across that has completely stumped me.  I guess this is my attempt at fleshing this all out, so bear with me. 

           So.  The Pardoner.  He’s this guy who tells moral stories and collects money from poor people. Not the most standup guy.  But he starts out telling the people in this pilgrimage that he’s lying! I’m not going to pretend to even think that this guy is a good guy, but there are some things to be said about his moral story.  This also circles back to the question of whether he’s doing his job correctly.  I guess if you don’t count the part where he’s screwing people out of their money, I guess he’s not doing quite as bad of a job as we think.

            I like to think that the difference between fiction and lying is the fact that you lie and present it as a truth, whereas in fiction you’re accepting the fact that this may not be a true story.  If you know that going in, all sense of morality is still intact.  So the pardoner tells this awesome story with an awesome lesson—it probably changes a few people’s lives. (I know when I read it, it really made me think.) It’s not earth-shattering, but it really makes you think about greed.

            I think the thing I’m most frustrated with is the fact that I can’t make sense of right and wrong in this case.  It’s driving me crazy!

Wife of Bath's Tale... is sorta feminist?

The Wife of Bath’s Prologue and Tale is definitely not what I expected as the usual feminine perspective, although, who is to say there was not a feminist ideology at the time, just not documented? Today the phrase “pics or it didn’t happen” is used to dare us to overshare personal experiences. I am used to living in a world where you are defined by what you document – on the internet especially- and how other perceive your evidence is how they perceive you. So perhaps The Wife of Bath’s Tale is not as shocking as it seemed to me at first. It would be cool if modern day technology took a break and we all went old school and we bonded in person with the people near us. (Ok, I am done with ranting on story telling.)

            Now to answer another question: is there really a universal thing that all women want? Yes… or they should… all women- every person- deserves respect (whether they know they deserve it or not.) In the Wife’s story, the woman wants respect to the point that even the guy allowing her to have even just one moment of autonomy is so crucial that she is willing to live the rest of her life as a loyal and obedient wife to this repenting rapist. On one hand, I like that this guy is sentenced to go through the searching process to learn “the err of his ways” before just executed, and it is pretty rad that the knight is convicted by women in powerful positions for rape! (It seems like a pretty advanced society and judicial system compared to modern day assaults and rapes that go on without punishment. Just saying.)

The Wife’s protagonist makes a good point about respecting women… but is this really his punishment? To marry a beautiful and good woman? Somehow, I doubt that he has had much internal growth between when he first met her to when they get married. But that is beside the point.

            The Wife is definitely reflecting her own perceptions onto the protagonist of her story. Both her and her protagonist share a moment of sovereignty over their husbands around the time when the prospect of death is eminent. (Also, I am 99% sure that marrying an ugly woman does not guarantees that she will be faithful to you!) There are so many parts of this story to talk about, and I have ranted enough, so I’ll just end it here. J

Slut: A Woman with the Morals of a Man.

         There's certainly more than what you 'see' (I suppose read would be the better verb here) to the Wife of Bath, but what I like best about her after reading her story is her attitude and perseverance. I know that this statement seems a tad contradictory to what I said in class, which was: "Maybe she's an early role model of what not to do with one's life". I really don't love the whole stupid-young-knight-gets-away-with-rape part of the story, but there's only so much one can focus on here. 

       Like so many of my peers have said this time around, feminism is a pretty big piece in this story. I really enjoyed the feministic quality that the Wife of Bath had, not only in her story, but also in her character. One idea that occurred to me as I was reading was "Wow, what would this lady be like in today's society?". Though I doubt that this is the case, I liked toying with the idea that she could have been an early activist (even the first?) who was trying to break through the standards of society by doing as she pleased, when she pleased, with WHOMEVER she pleased. Essentially, being like a man.

           Though her morals tend to be on the looser side compared to other women of her time, I like the Wife of Bath. I think that she is smart, calculating, and ballsy, even if a little less than the ideal woman in some (or even most) respects. Being these things got her to where she is 'now', and even though it was a rough and rocky road, she still persevered and worked with what she had. Chaucer painted a modern day woman in an old fashioned tale, and in my opinion did a very good job of it. I honestly wish that I were as smart and ballsy as she was. 

Anything men can do, the wife of bath can do better....yes she can, yes she can, yes she can!

The wife of Bath still confuses me, because she's on the border between feminism and using feminism as an excuse to be promiscuous. She is definitely a powerful individual. I wouldn't look up to her as a mother or sister persona, but I think I would cheer her on as she talked back to a man and put him in his place.

 In terms of the prologue, I find it very peculiar that it's longer than her tale. Usually, someone who talks more about themselves and less about the story they're sharing would come across as vain and boastful, but the prologue wasn't really all about her. A great chunk of it was discussing her five husbands. I think the prologue being so descriptive is mostly her setting the ground rules of the trip and saying, I'm loud and proud of who I am and you don't have to like me, but that's who I am. As well as, watch out. I'm experienced with handling and even controlling men and I can control you. I partially also think that she's a bit insane. Yes, literally. I give her kudos for her actions around line 790, when she feigns death and then punches her husband, but as powerful and surprising a move as that is, it's also crazy! I don't know if she's overly sexually driven or if she just likes to know that she can claim one husband after another, but it seems upsetting and bizarre that she doesn't mourn these men. Many women have to work up the courage to marry a second man when they lose the first, and some can't bear to marry again ever. She bounces back awfully quick. And in 820 when she says that she "was to him as kinde as any wyf from Denmark unto Inde, and also trewe, and so he was to me"...at first I thought this was great. Maybe this tussle let them work out their differences and become a better couple. But as I thought about it, I got more of a criminal view and pictured her tying his hands in ropes and burning his anti-women books in the fire. It felt so manipulative and evil and it made me feel like the ending line was telling women that she appeared to be a great wife, but she wore the pants and held the reigns of the relationship and could make this pairing so great because she had taken charge.

In terms of her story, I was shocked by what it was. I was expecting some vulgar bar story about picking up men. Instead, it started to gear towards woman power and saying that no man could ever know what women want most. I also got this huge vibe of women can do anything better than men. So maybe not complete feminism, but more of a competition. I was also very confused by the ending. The whole story you think that yes, women are winning, this knight will never know what women truly desire, he's just going to get hundreds of different answers and he will fail and be killed. But then he ends up being rewarded with a beautiful woman? What was the whole point of the story? Whatever it was, its meaning is shattered as the knight claims his prize: a woman. The story also warps what I was thinking before. Maybe she is insane, but maybe she is not the manipulator. Maybe she is saying that no matter how powerful women are, they should keep their mouths shut. Maybe she hit her husband and their relationship was so "great" because he lashed back and abused her and told her to never speak of it again. Maybe the facade of perfection is her keeping her silence about being controlled and only looks perfect and maybe she is saying that this is true of every wife. That every wife is powerful on the inside, but is forced to look like the perfect married pair on the outside.

I think The wife of Bath feels women are better than men, but is she really acting on it or is she saying, yes, we know we're superior and better, and if you give us the chance we'll fight back, but it's more proper to hide it and pretend all is well?

Enjoyed her story, still not a fan of hers

The Wife of Bath's Tale. . . . . Wow... She really is something else. I semi-enjoyed reading her tale of the old hag and the young rapist knight. The Wife of Bath has had five husbands and is open to having a sixth. She tells a story that would make it seem like she wants to be a good wife, but ends her story all screwed up.

I can't help but think, women really want to be in charge of their husbands and lovers? ? ? Yep, I can definitely see that. What also had me thinking was the old woman's point of view while they were laying in bed. The rapist knight complained about his new wife being old and ugly and low borne wife. But she argues the fact that you can have high noble blood but be a low down person at the same time. A person's lineage has nothing to do with the character of that person. She also argues that money has nothing to do with being rich. It's about wanting little. These subjects are asked to people all the time in little sayings like money can't buy happiness. Her argument had me thinking about what is the definition of rich? You can be rich in several things. I want to be rich in money and love and happiness and faith, etc. The wife then gives her husband a choice, either to have a good, loyal and ugly wife or a young, pretty, and unfaithful wife. He lets her decide. He took her advice from earlier and gave her dominance over him. Finally a good choice from the rapist. In return, the wife becomes all things good, she is young, pretty, faithful, overall a good wife.

I enjoyed thinking about the topics the wife brings up to the husband in the Wife's tale. For a second there, the Wife of Bath seems to be pretty smart. But then she ends her story with a small prayer. Wanting Jesus to give Wife's husbands who are young, good looking, and great in bed, AND the power to outlive the men. She's so contradictory. She tells us a story with an ending where the couple has a wonderful long and healthy marriage. Then kind of implies she wants women to be whores like her and have multiple husbands. Despite her past relationships, I was kind of hopeful for the Wife, thinking maybe she could change into a good wife who doesn't torment her husband. But then I lost all hope for her after reading her whole story.

The other part that I did not like about her story as you could probably tell from above, is that the knight is a rapist. He got away by finding out what women truly want, which is obviously not the d. This angers me so much. He RAPED someone and in return he gains a beautiful young loyal wife. I would have sent him to get his head cut off with a rusty sword. This is not okay. The moral of the story should be not to rape women, instead, it's giving women dominance over men then you can have a great marriage. This is angering.

Power to the You know what !

The Wife of Bath explains the experience of authority verses "The thing women most desire" ; which is complete control over their husbands. Because the wife has had five husbands, she feels entitled to speak to anyone with authority. From all her experiences with the men in her life, in this tale, she essentially tells us how she was able to get the upper hand with all of them. Thus, gaining sovereignty.  

The Wife of Bath carefully views scriptures and the word of God to validate her actions. "I trowe he hadde wyves mo than oon, As wolde God it leveful were unto me, to be refreshed half so ofte as he (103, 36-39)!" Her knowledge of the bible reveals to me that she isn't a simple minded women. She takes into consideration every action she partakes in. In fact, she even confesses that she cannot find anything wrong with having one or more marriages.  

Once the Wife of Bath moves on from scripture. She does admit that she enjoys sex and is not ashamed of it. Personally, I like the Wife of Bath! She is real, and doesn’t care how others feel about her, which is exactly how she should feel. She feels as though women should be submissive especially when it comes to sex. Nothing is wrong with what the wife of bath is doing. If pleasing her man is what she likes to do, and she has the power to do it why stop her? She is fulfilling a sex craze lifestyle!  

Although I fully support the decisions the wife of bath makes, all her cases do go against the authorities of the church. The great thing about her is that her arguments are not only good, but she too portrays a perfect picture of a women. She is a woman who is strong, independent, and responsible. Yes she may have lost all her youth and beauty after five husbands.Non the less she is still standing and has survived all hardships she's faced. She enjoys everything about her life, and that is something that no one can take away from her.  

We are the Knights Who Say... the correct answer and get away with rape.

Diving right into my thoughts on the Wife of Bath’s Tale, I’m honestly not too sure what to make of it. At first I thought it was good that the women were punishing the lusty knight for raping the woman, but by the end of the tale he’s basically gotten everything he wanted just by whining about his wife being ugly. I suppose my main question here is: Did he really learn his lesson? It seems by the end that he might have, but he also just kind of whined until she gave him the question, to which he couldn’t answer and just forfeited.

            Conversely, I did appreciate that the women in the story did have a strong central focus and were consulted for the major decisions. King Arthur obeying his wife’s counsel is obvious foreshadowing to what would be the answer to the queen’s question. I think because of the main role that women play in this story, the Wife of Bath’s role as a proto-feminist does begin to shine through and the story speaks volumes to the type of person she is. The control that she has over all of the husbands she has had is a perfect example of the desire to be in charge that answers the queen’s question.

           

            So while I think that it’s good that women took a central role, and the Wife of Bath is definitely making a point of telling a story that is relevant to her life, I’m still not 100% sold on the ending. It’s good that there was a nice tied ribbon of a happy ending, but should the knight have gotten what he wanted? The tale begins with him raping a woman and ends with him married a woman that is both beautiful and good. I know that the setting is an important factor here, but I definitely don’t believe this guy deserves a happy ending. He stays shitty until he decides to leave one decision up to her and she magically becomes great and – big shocker here – he’s suddenly happy because beauty is only skin deep. The woman already seemed good, so the personality was there. She just had to look better before he would accept that they were married.